Should I Worship With Them? (12/06)
Below is the script from the LivingBold chat, "Should I worship with them?" with Pastors Nathan Strobel and Charles Vannieuwenhoven. Pastor Strobel is campus pastor at Wisconsin Lutheran College (WELS-affiliate) of Milwaukee, WI. Pastor Vannieuwenhoven served as campus pastor for The Beacon: Lutheran Student Center located on the campus of the University of MN at Mankato from 1998 - 2006. He currently serves as pastor for Northdale Lutheran Church (WELS) in Tampa, FL.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 7:46:54 PM)
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nate (Dec 19, 2006 7:46:55 PM)
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chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:47:07 PM)
Hello hosts
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 7:47:11 PM)
Hello
nate (Dec 19, 2006 7:47:19 PM)
Hello!
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:47:29 PM)
Thanks for hosting tonight
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 7:47:34 PM)
Your welcome
nate (Dec 19, 2006 7:47:35 PM)
Most welcome
nate (Dec 19, 2006 7:49:12 PM)
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luvmath (Dec 19, 2006 7:49:27 PM)
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chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:49:33 PM)
We've seen from 3 - over 25 visitors during chats. You'll also see messages posted by the chat system like that one.
me (Dec 19, 2006 7:49:34 PM)
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Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 7:49:50 PM)
Just checking my new icon:-)
ed (Dec 19, 2006 7:49:59 PM)
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luvmath (Dec 19, 2006 7:50:05 PM)
am I late?
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:50:05 PM)
We'll start at 8pm. Feel free to get to know one another.
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:50:16 PM)
Central Time
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:50:47 PM)
Everyone
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:50:54 PM)
WELS? ELS? Other?
luvmath (Dec 19, 2006 7:51:02 PM)
WELS
Billy (Dec 19, 2006 7:53:00 PM)
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jbak (Dec 19, 2006 7:53:10 PM)
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Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 7:53:15 PM)
Hey, Billy. Welcome!
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 7:53:46 PM)
Welcome, jbak.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 7:53:48 PM)
Pastor Vann! Great to be in on this with you!
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:53:50 PM)
* Pastor Strobel is Campus Pastor at Wisconsin Lutheran College of Milwaukee, WI – www.wlc.edu * Pastor Vannieuwenhoven was formerly Campus Pastor at Minnesota State University at Mankato serving The Beacon Lutheran Student Center -
jbak (Dec 19, 2006 7:54:21 PM)
Hey Pastors
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 7:54:29 PM)
Pastor Strobel, I knew our paths would cross again. It's 80 degrees here in Tampa. How's the weather in Milwaukee?
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 7:54:52 PM)
Downright balmy at 40 degrees!
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 7:55:16 PM)
For Wisconsinites, that's shorts weather.
Christina (Dec 19, 2006 7:55:36 PM)
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chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:55:51 PM)
5 Minutes till chat time... get ready!
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 7:56:02 PM)
Hello, Christina! Welcome!
Christina (Dec 19, 2006 7:56:08 PM)
Hello
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 7:56:19 PM)
Glad to have everyone with us.
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:57:03 PM)
Pastors, if you'd like to start early... go ahead...
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 7:57:06 PM)
* Pastor Strobel is Campus Pastor at Wisconsin Lutheran College of Milwaukee, WI – www.wlc.edu * Pastor Vannieuwenhoven was formerly Campus Pastor at Minnesota State University at Mankato serving The Beacon Lutheran Student Center -
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 7:57:20 PM)
That's fine by me.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 7:57:58 PM)
Greetings, everyone! I am thrilled to spend some time sharing about Fellowship. It's long been a growing area for me spiritually.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 7:58:52 PM)
I'm not sure of the best way to start, but maybe it would be good to open it up to see what kinds of questions you all might have that can get us going in direction.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 7:59:34 PM)
Fellowship sure isn't an easy area. There's lots of struggles that many have with it. What are some of your struggles in the area of fellowship?
ChadM (Dec 19, 2006 7:59:44 PM)
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Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:00:11 PM)
Hey, Chad M. Welcome aboard! We're just trying to get started here.
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:00:14 PM)
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js (Dec 19, 2006 8:00:21 PM)
Good evening everyone
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:00:23 PM)
Hi, JS
KC (Dec 19, 2006 8:00:35 PM)
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chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 8:00:39 PM)
* “Sometimes people will say that they don’t agree with the errors in the confession or practice of the church to which they belong. But if they continue to attend and support a false church, then they are holding to the confession of the church (2 John 10, 11)” – Exposition of Luther’s Small Catechism, p. 210.
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:01:12 PM)
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Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:01:27 PM)
Do all of us see value in the Docrine of Fellowship? Or do we see frustrations?
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:01:40 PM)
Or both?
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:01:43 PM)
pastor vann, what was it like being part of a campus ministry on such a large campus?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:01:44 PM)
The hard part of this is that we can't look into a person's heart. What we have to go by is their confession.
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:01:54 PM)
It has been difficult to understand especially when the practice of it comes across as proud
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:02:24 PM)
JS Campus ministry was by far my favorite part of the ministry. There are many young students searching when it comes to their spiritual life.
stephanieurbanek (Dec 19, 2006 8:02:45 PM)
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Sandy Umphrey (Dec 19, 2006 8:03:07 PM)
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js (Dec 19, 2006 8:03:08 PM)
pastor vann, what type of worship and or devotions did you offer for your students ?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:03:12 PM)
js, we really didn't have too many issues with fellowship. Many knew exactly where we stood and they were ok with that.
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:03:39 PM)
pastor vann, did anyone ever accuse you of being closed-minded based on your stance?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:03:41 PM)
js We didn't offer Sunday worship. We had Wednesday evening vespers and Bible classes Monday, Tuesday and Thursday.
captain_vball (Dec 19, 2006 8:04:02 PM)
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Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:04:08 PM)
js, yes there were times that people accused us of that.
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:04:14 PM)
Pastor V. did you have Communion at the worship services?
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:04:21 PM)
good question, me
jbak (Dec 19, 2006 8:04:24 PM)
Vann, that brings up a question I had...were any of the visiting students actually offended by fellowship?
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:04:31 PM)
communion is always a hot topic connected to fellowship
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:04:50 PM)
me, we did have communion on Ash Wednesday and the last vepsers of the months.
Rod (Dec 19, 2006 8:05:06 PM)
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me (Dec 19, 2006 8:05:11 PM)
At Marquette if we have a worship service with communion, it has to be open communion according to University rules
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:05:29 PM)
me, that's interesting that the university makes that rule
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:05:31 PM)
Some were offended by our stance on fellowship. But the key to applying the principles of fellowship is Christian love. And I always talked with anyone who had issues.
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:05:34 PM)
and that is accepted by the Wels Church?
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:05:45 PM)
pastor strobel, do you ever have communion at your college?
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:06:12 PM)
We do not have worship services yet at Marquette for WELS students
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:06:26 PM)
The hardest part in speaking to anyone about fellowship is helping them to understand why it is so important for us to stand firm on every doctrine of scripture.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:06:28 PM)
Js, we actually stopped having communion on our campus because it was difficult for us to practice it in a loving way.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:07:27 PM)
Pastor Strobel, could you expand on "pracitce it in a loving way?"
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:07:36 PM)
pastor strobel, did you have difficulty explaining that to some?
ed (Dec 19, 2006 8:07:50 PM)
pastor s, In what way is it unloving to celebrate the lord's supper?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:08:50 PM)
ed, Scripture talks very plainly that whoever eats or drinks of the Lord's supper in an unworthy way eats and drinks judgment on himself. Allowing someone to go before the Lord while holding on to truths that are not in scripture would be very unloving for their soul.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:09:06 PM)
Hi, Stephanie! We invited to, and included, our 35% non-WELS students to daily chapel and weekly vespers and Bible Study, but then once or twice a year, we uninvited them to the Lord's Table. I could never effectively explain that seeming "change" in practice.
luvmath (Dec 19, 2006 8:09:21 PM)
Do you offer individual communion or is there a church for WELS students to partake of communion
hammer (Dec 19, 2006 8:09:41 PM)
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Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:09:49 PM)
While we cannot look into their heart, we must go by their confession. And if their confession is to a church that does not teach all the truths of scripture, we must stand up to that.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:09:59 PM)
There are 65+ WELS churches in the Milw area, and YES, I do commune individuals upon request.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:10:08 PM)
luvmath, the students came to worship at st. pauls in north mankato for worship on the weekend.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:10:19 PM)
They could take communion there.
luvmath (Dec 19, 2006 8:11:04 PM)
thats good. Im out here in no where land where the closest Wels church is 75 miles and would not be well if communion was lost
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:11:23 PM)
I believe that attendance at Lord's Supper is less of a fellowship issue and more of a proper shepherding of souls issue.
luvmath (Dec 19, 2006 8:11:37 PM)
yes
ed (Dec 19, 2006 8:12:34 PM)
Pastors, do you think the gospel celebrated in communion is more offensive to those outside our church than the gospel that is taught o preached?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:12:59 PM)
the interesting thing that is often left out is the importance of the individual to check a church out before communing with them. So often we blame the church for being close minded and we forget about the individual responsibility that each of us has to examine a church before we step into fellowship with them.
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:13:00 PM)
pastor s, isn't confession of unified faith one of the main points of practicing fellowship where communion is concerned?
KC (Dec 19, 2006 8:13:21 PM)
How is visiting other curches harmful to us.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:14:19 PM)
KC, we need to know what we are exposing ourselves to when we do that. I'm not talking within the WELS. I'm talking about us going outside the WELS or outsiders coming in.
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:14:42 PM)
"outsiders coming in" seems harsh
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:14:53 PM)
js, yes indeed. That is important. But the best way to express that is with concern for a soul that might not know what is going on in the Supper and therefore be harmed spiritually.
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:14:56 PM)
especially since that is "anyone that is not WELS"
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:15:18 PM)
it was not intended to be harsh nor offensive.
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 8:15:30 PM)
* Ecumenical - promoting or fostering Christian unity throughout the world; of or pertaining to a movement (ecumenical movement), esp. among Protestant groups since the 1800s, aimed at achieving universal Christian unity and church union through international interdenominational organizations that cooperate on matters of mutual concern – definitions 3 and 4, www.dictionary.com.
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:15:44 PM)
We do need to word things carefully, however because this is often the misunderstading about fellowship
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:16:32 PM)
I agree ... as an individual new to the WELS faith (married into it) I was definately taken aback by the stance on close communion, many times it is not worded carefully
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:16:35 PM)
me, good point, and often it is the lack of good communication about fellowship that produces the most anger against it.
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:16:43 PM)
me, it's all about "speaking the truth in love"
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:17:33 PM)
The
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:17:36 PM)
Ecumenicalism is an interesting topic at a Catholic University. Now that the Catholics and the Lutheran World Federation have signed an agreement on Justification, when we say that we as wels members are lutheran, they assume that we are in complete agreement with them
KC (Dec 19, 2006 8:17:51 PM)
why are we only talking about communion ?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:18:00 PM)
I can tell you that just about every time I've had the chance to sit down and go through it with someone, they have come to appreciate it. There are certainly the exceptions to that. But the loving part of this is to sit down and explain why we do what we do and why it is important for one's soul.
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:18:05 PM)
me, "lutheran" is a pretty broad, watered down term these days
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:19:01 PM)
js--that makes it difficult to have fellowship be the first doctrine that needs discussing, even though it is a doctrine only understadable in sanctification rather than for justification.
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 8:19:07 PM)
* WELS suspended fellowship with Missouri Synod (LCMS) in 1961.
KC (Dec 19, 2006 8:19:43 PM)
doesn't it start with worship ?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:20:05 PM)
kc, explain a little further.
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:20:53 PM)
KC-- it gets even more difficult when we are a WELS student organization among other religious student organizations. Not churches, not individuals, not having worhip, but still trying to apply fellowship principles in a loving way.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:21:34 PM)
The principles of fellowship are truly easy and beautiful when the focus stays on Jesus as saving truth, and on the dangers of false teaching that Jesus calls "yeast". Without those thoughts in place, the discussion can digress into "who's right".
KC (Dec 19, 2006 8:21:46 PM)
isn't in worship that we shold see errors.
ed (Dec 19, 2006 8:22:28 PM)
should i?
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:23:09 PM)
KC-- worship in many churches is often the same-- the same hymns, liturgy, etc. The errors often come down to more difficult doctrines which don't appear in worship
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:23:10 PM)
pastor vann, did you have a significant non-WELS population utilizing your campus ministry?
Christina (Dec 19, 2006 8:23:19 PM)
Is "praying" still a fellowship issue if "you" are leading the prayer as a way to witness
Eddie (Dec 19, 2006 8:23:32 PM)
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jbak (Dec 19, 2006 8:23:34 PM)
so if I have a girlfriend who will only go to my wels church if I go to her non-wels church, should I say yes or no?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:23:50 PM)
The guiding principle about whether I should worship with someone or not is are they teaching God's word and what would give the clearest confession to the truth of God's word.
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:24:21 PM)
jbak, that's a complicated question
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:24:22 PM)
js, we did not have a large non-wels population worshipping with us. We had more that came to Bible Study than to worship.
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:24:48 PM)
Pastor Vann-- nonWELS and nonChristian or just nonwels and other Christian?
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:24:55 PM)
Christina, praying is improper fellowship if our praying hides who Jesus truly is.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:25:37 PM)
me, We had more other Christian than we did nonChristian. Though we were able to minister to some who did not know Jesus.
Christina (Dec 19, 2006 8:25:48 PM)
But if we pray like we do in church and nonMembers join in... is it ok... especially if we are leading?
prochnow (Dec 19, 2006 8:26:02 PM)
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js (Dec 19, 2006 8:26:09 PM)
pastor vann, what did you do to raise awareness of the campus ministry and get other non-Christians to take notice?
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 8:26:49 PM)
* WELS is a member of the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference. Learn more at www.celc.info
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:27:14 PM)
js, we did many things on campus to raise awareness. We manned display booths on campus during orientation and throughout the year. We advertised in the school newspaper. We even brought in an outside speaker one year and had 350 from the campus community to hear that.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:27:16 PM)
Christina, remember, you and I are free to pray FOR anyone. If you announce that you are going to pray on behalf of those present, it is their choice or not to join in with us. It would not work to rush over and unfold their hands and stop them (my thoughts at one time :0)
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:27:25 PM)
Christina, I think if a non-member comes to your church, it's their decision whether or not to express oneness of faith by participating
sneck (Dec 19, 2006 8:27:38 PM)
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Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:27:49 PM)
jbak, I'd like to get back to your question about going to her non-wels church. That is a tough question.
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:28:03 PM)
pastor vann, i agree
mhgv (Dec 19, 2006 8:28:28 PM)
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Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:28:44 PM)
jbak, how deep into discussion have you gotten about the differences between the two churches?
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 8:29:11 PM)
Tip! You may change your ICON by clicking on the SETTINGS button in the lower right corner.
ChadM (Dec 19, 2006 8:29:11 PM)
Good discussion, but I have to go...
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:29:45 PM)
Going to her church: It always depends upon the circumstances, doesn't it? WHY am I going with her? Is it US truly growing to know Jesus better, or she and I trying to prove our church as good as the other?
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:30:09 PM)
pastor s, good point, often it comes down to motivation
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:30:13 PM)
Going still allows for a point of comparaison and discussion
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:30:31 PM)
Maybe the church teaches the exact truth
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:30:43 PM)
We cannot know by staying at our own church
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:30:58 PM)
There is also a difference between going to a service as an observer and going as a worshipper.
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:31:07 PM)
Listening is very important when witnessing
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:31:16 PM)
me, agreed
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:31:16 PM)
me, if it does, then engage the pastor in conversation and establish open fellowship with your WELS church. How cool is that?
KC (Dec 19, 2006 8:31:25 PM)
i think they should teach evrey thing in the bible
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:31:35 PM)
We only can do that if we go in the first place
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:31:36 PM)
me, we can know by a church's affiliation what they teach, even if we don't go there ourselves.
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:31:44 PM)
Not necessarily
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:31:51 PM)
pastor vann, I disagree
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:32:05 PM)
I have found our definitions of other denominations to be incomplete or inaccurate
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:32:23 PM)
is every WELS church the same, every Baptist church ... how about non-denominational?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:32:28 PM)
But by affiliating to another group, that becomes a confessions
KC (Dec 19, 2006 8:32:37 PM)
i cant agree with you ,me
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:32:58 PM)
Botri, that is one of the beautiful things about our Wisconsin synod. Yes, we have agreement in doctrine. And no, the Baptist's cannot say that.
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:33:12 PM)
an individual church may differ from the teachings of it's denomination or synod, but then you have to ask why they belong if they don't agree
jbak (Dec 19, 2006 8:33:26 PM)
Haven't gone deep. Maybe that's what my real question is, when should we have the talk about which church to go to. I know I won't transfer to her church, but should I veto hers right away or go slow?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:33:40 PM)
Practice may be different in some areas of the WELS, but doctrinally we are united like very few other church bodies.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:33:48 PM)
good point, js.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:33:54 PM)
me and Botri--Pastor Vann is simply implying that we probably know what is being taught. We ought not to go in naive.
KC (Dec 19, 2006 8:34:06 PM)
go slow
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:34:07 PM)
jbak, you want to proceed in a way that will strengthen her relationship with Jesus
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:34:18 PM)
Pastor S ... I agree with that statement
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:34:30 PM)
Pastor S-- We also can't go in assuming we know more about what they believe than they do
Wamgalishka (Dec 19, 2006 8:35:04 PM)
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Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:35:37 PM)
me, you are correct. That would not be loving, and it also closes doors to everyone knowing Christ better. I will learn as I share him and listen to others in their questioning and spiritual journey.
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 8:36:01 PM)
* See what others are asking about fellowship by visiting WELS Q & A and looking in the “Fellowship” category. Visit www.wels.net, jumpword “qa”.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:36:12 PM)
me, you are correct. And we can't be arrogant or proud about it. But many of the differences between our church bodies go back a long way.
KC (Dec 19, 2006 8:36:26 PM)
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Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:36:56 PM)
And many of those differences today stem from the basic theological errors that separated us in the first place.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:37:04 PM)
The important thing is to actually share Jesus and his truth, and not hide him by fellowshiping when we shouldn't, or vice versa (careful here though).
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:37:38 PM)
What we always need to go back to is not "what we teach" or "what they teach". But what does scripture teach.
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:37:39 PM)
Pastor S ... can you give a real world example of "not hide him by fellowshiping when we shouldn't"
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:38:26 PM)
pastor strobel, at some point you have to go beyond Jesus to the finer points of the Bible. It's pretty easy to get someone to agree to the statement, "I believe Jesus is my Savior"
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:39:43 PM)
Botri--real life--If I pray with the female, Episcopal priest who just gave the lesbian couple five rows ahead of me permission to be lesbians TWICE in a Christmas Eve service ('04), I am not creating an opportunity for anyone to ask me why I didn't go along with the flow like everyone else. And Jesus and his truth are clouded.
Bernie (Dec 19, 2006 8:39:44 PM)
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Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:39:56 PM)
jbak, I never got back to you. I would agree that you should go slow. Go at it not from the stand point that I'm right and you're wrong. But what does scripture teach and which church best teaches what scripture says. Perhaps going together to a Bible information class would be a good start, simply to seach the scriptures together.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:40:21 PM)
js--you are SO correct there!
jbak (Dec 19, 2006 8:41:04 PM)
pastor vann, I'd like to do that with her. I never thought about asking her to try a Bible class with me.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:41:33 PM)
jbak, keep the focus on what scripture teaches.
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:41:45 PM)
Pastor S ... thank you for that example, I guess the grey area comes when it isn't the female Episcopal priest that promotes homosexual relationships, but how about a neighbor who is a practicing Catholic wanting to join in prayer and praise and worship?
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:42:35 PM)
Botri, but what a great chance that gives you to sit with your Catholic friend and help them to see what the scriptures really say.
mhgv (Dec 19, 2006 8:42:43 PM)
Can I go to my Catholic grandmother's funeral and pray?
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:43:24 PM)
Botri--I would encourage you to get to know that neighbor better almost in a "friendship evangelism way" so that you earn the right to speak on deeper issues and ask him about his faith with a smile on YOUR face.
Christina (Dec 19, 2006 8:43:31 PM)
Sometimes we need to be patient and let the Holy Spirit do the work, no? It can't be forced and knowing that someone "believes Jesus is our Savior" has to be enough ... then sharing as it fits, rather than forcing...no?
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:43:47 PM)
JS-- it is important to remember that all of those who know that Jesus is their savior are part of the holy Christian Church and will be in heaven. we must always explain that fellowhip does not judge faith, only seeks to keep doctrine correct
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:43:54 PM)
I've had people upset with me because I wouldn't join them in fellowship until they went through a Bible information class and joined our church. And though they were not happy at first, they were very thankful that we went that route because they saw what the scriptures said. I wouldn't have had that chance if I would have just went ahead at first.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:45:03 PM)
Christina--patience...and Jesus. His presence and his words in the fellowship circle are most important.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:45:04 PM)
me, we also have to remember that when we exercise fellowship, it is always in the visible realm of visible assemblies of believers. We can never presume to exercise church fellowship in the context of the Holy Christian Church. Only God can look into the heart.
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:45:10 PM)
Pastor V ... great point indeed. That is the key element, but meeting in a interdenominational group and participating in prayer with Christians of various denominations, leading and following ... seems to be against the WELS vision. While it may lead to your chance of spreading the true message ... a relationship has to be developed which takes time. Am I supposed to not pray when another leads a prayer?
jbak (Dec 19, 2006 8:45:50 PM)
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js (Dec 19, 2006 8:45:56 PM)
Botri, it will invite a question much sooner than if you "go along with it"
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:45:56 PM)
Exactly Pastor V
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:47:47 PM)
Botri--there is also a difference between meeting with individuals and developing a relationship vs joining a big interdenominational group and giving the appearance that you agree with everyone in attendance
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:47:54 PM)
Again, it goes back to the concept, what is the best confession that I can make? What is the best for the souls of those who are in this group? Is it better for me to go along with them in this prayer or does it help them more that I refrain so that we can continue our discussions? Those are not easy questions to answer. But more often than not, I have found that refraining leads to further discussions. Just going along lends to stop the discussion.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:48:03 PM)
All--Fellowship, in a sense, has less to do with "whether I am acting right or wrong", and more to do with "will my actions help the Body of Christ know him better"?
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:49:41 PM)
pastor s, that moves the responsibility of practicing fellowship from a personal one to a public one
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:50:00 PM)
But this gets back to the real meaning of love--what is best for the other person regardless of the cost to myself? Christ's love led him to go to Calvary for our sins. Not good for him. But wonderful for us. And that is the love that we model as we preach Christ crucified and seek to build each other up in our Savior.
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:50:11 PM)
Pastor V ... I guess that just (in my opinion) leads to others getting a poor opinion of the guy who won't participate. While some will ask why and that will lead to a fruitful discussion, there will be many others that view the action and walk away ... thinking about "that smug Lutheran"
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:51:02 PM)
js--it is personal and public--I am the one who has to make a decision, with an individual, or in a public setting.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:51:11 PM)
Botri, there may be some that might think "that smug Lutheran." But if you did nothing, would you be able to have that fruitful discussion with anyone?
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:51:12 PM)
that just leads to propagating a poor and innacurate impression of a great a solid Christian denomination
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:52:01 PM)
pastor s, I guess what I meant is that it takes the mentality to a new level
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:52:15 PM)
it's not just whether or not I'm doing what's right personally
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:52:30 PM)
it's also affecting the entire body of believers
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:52:31 PM)
js--SO right!
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:52:40 PM)
I like looking at it this way
mikecolley (Dec 19, 2006 8:52:42 PM)
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me (Dec 19, 2006 8:52:54 PM)
It also will make it easier to explain to others
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:52:59 PM)
me, exactly
Rod (Dec 19, 2006 8:54:08 PM)
me that seems to be a broad statement with so much false doctrine
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:55:03 PM)
Rod-- which statement?
mikecolley (Dec 19, 2006 8:57:03 PM)
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DH (Dec 19, 2006 8:57:13 PM)
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Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:57:26 PM)
We're getting towards the end of our discussion tonight. I think it's been a great discussion.
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:57:35 PM)
i agree, pastor vann
Christina (Dec 19, 2006 8:57:48 PM)
Yes Pastor Vann Thank you
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:57:52 PM)
Thank you everyone for helping to work through these issues
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:58:00 PM)
You're very welcome, Christina
Christina (Dec 19, 2006 8:58:05 PM)
Also Thank you Pastro Strobel
mhgv (Dec 19, 2006 8:58:15 PM)
I"m still conflicted about my Catholic Grandmother's funeral.
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 8:58:21 PM)
You are most welcome, Christina!
js (Dec 19, 2006 8:58:42 PM)
mhgv, family is always a tough one, especially family events like weddings and funerals
Rod (Dec 19, 2006 8:58:57 PM)
me all christian are going to heaven
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 8:59:06 PM)
mhgv, my Grandfather was Catholic also. And I went to his funeral. I did not worship with everyone. I did not attend mass with that part of my family. But I did go to the funeral.
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 8:59:24 PM)
Pastors, we have one minute left. Would you like to make closing statements?
mhgv (Dec 19, 2006 8:59:29 PM)
thanks and god bless all
me (Dec 19, 2006 8:59:55 PM)
Rod-- Everyone who believes in Jesus as their savior will be in heaven-- i did not mean to say that all who call themselves christian will be
Botri (Dec 19, 2006 8:59:56 PM)
mhgv ... reflect within scripture to find your answer ... how did Jesus treat all those around him?
js (Dec 19, 2006 9:00:19 PM)
thanks pastors vann and strobel for you insights this evening
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 9:00:28 PM)
You're welcome
js (Dec 19, 2006 9:00:28 PM)
and thanks to all chatters for participating
Pastor Strobel (Dec 19, 2006 9:00:35 PM)
Jesus' instructions to us on sharing our friendship and fellowship with him could be called "tough love", i.e., saying and doing what is needed to safeguard others, and especially Jesus.
Pastor Vann (Dec 19, 2006 9:01:27 PM)
God's blessings to all as you strive to stand firm on the truths of scripture and apply the doctrines of scripture in love.
Rod (Dec 19, 2006 9:01:29 PM)
me too much false doctrine out there for me to accept that think Confession
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 9:01:31 PM)
Thank you to both Pastor Strobel and Pastor Vann for hosting this chat! More chats scheduled in January... see you then!
chatmaster (Dec 19, 2006 9:02:07 PM)
Merry Christmas all... please log off.
js (Dec 19, 2006 9:02:17 PM)
merry christmas chatmaster
DH (Dec 19, 2006 9:02:17 PM)
Sorry I missed this....